SPEAKER_02 0:00

At last, passage paid and luggage safe, we stood on board the schooner, hoisting sail, it glided down the Akushnet River. On one side, Nubeford rose in terraces of streets, their ice cover trees all glittering in the clear, cold air. Huge hills and mountains of cars and cast were piled upon the wharfs. And side by side, the world wandering worldships lived silently and safely moored at last. While from others came the sound of carpenters and coopers, with plenty noises of fires and forges to melt the pitch of between. That new cruises were on the start. That one most perilous and long voyage ended, only begins a second. And the second ended, only begins a third, and so on forever and for our. Such is the endless, yea, the intolerableness of all ethnic efforts.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Wonderful. So what you just heard there uh was Rufai Chardot of the New Bedford Whaling National Historical Park, um, who I'm very happy to have on uh Pequad Pod today to talk about New Bedford as a place, the history of New Bedford, some of the interesting uh characters uh that we uh see appear in New Bedford besides Herman Melville. Definitely going to be talking about Frederick Douglass, talking about the Underground Railroad, all sorts of things. Um, and and yourself. Uh you're also uh uh and one of the interesting characters of New Bedford. Uh agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Uh yes, I'm a I'm a park ranger here, so I sometimes have to insert myself in Moby Dick when I'm being when I'm being walking to us, you know. So it's it's it's it's kind of cool to see myself telling the story of murder right here in New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah, absolutely. Um so uh would you tell me a bit about the institution you work at? So the New Bedford Whaling National Historical Park.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yes, so this is a park since 1996. Guess what? November 12th of this year, we'll be celebrating our 30th anniversary. Wow, there you go. So, yeah, so we have some cool programs coming up. Uh, so hopefully that can join us. So here at the park, you know, it's about whaling, you know. Uh, so we talk the story, we tell a story of whaling, we preserve uh the stories again of Melville, of Douglas, of women, of immigrants, the Cape Verdians, and the Azorians. So here at the park, that's what we do. We tell those kind of stories. Uh uh, people that came here again during whaling to turn this city into one of the whaling ports in the country. You know, so we have walking tours that we offer to the public. They are free. It always starts from May through October. So for this year, we have less than a month for our walking tours to come to an end. But uh uh starting next year again, we will you know start again. So uh so that's what we do here at the park.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Yeah, absolutely. So um, what's the the park consist of? So like usually when I think of like a national park, I'm thinking like Yosemite or uh Yellowstone or something, like one of these like wide open spaces. But this is like a park within a city, so this is like a historical park. So, like what's uh the park consist of?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

So this is an urban park, as you already know. So the park, we all own one building, but in the boundary of the national park, there's close to 32 or 33 buildings.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

So the the main building is of course the whale museum, right? And then the chapel that Melville wrote about in Moby Deck, right? So we are also what we call partnership park. So we work with the Whaling Museum with the Siemens Bethel or the chapel uh to do programs, right? We have businesses in the park that we don't have any rights on it, but uh uh we only own our building. But we again we share the stories of these buildings that are now restaurants, right? Are now residents, uh, are now at studio, you know. So we tell these stories as we take uh people on a walking tour to share to tell them what happened here in New Bedford during the whaling.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

I saw that you can get married at the Siemens Bethel. Correct. Um have you been married at the Siemens Battle?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

After after, but yes, you can get married. You can uh uh baby christening, they have all kinds of stuff. The only thing I'm gonna add is in before the Civil War, there was a uh a Civil War hero called James Gooden. Uh James Gooden was part, he was there's a lot of correspondency with him with Abraham Lincoln about uh black officers and white officers' payment. Before he signed up, he got married in this chapel. Oh, very neat. Yeah, yeah, he got married in this chapel before he signed up, and he left his wife, I think six months later on Valentine's Day. You know, so this chapel is not only Melville, but it's historical. So the uh the locals right can feel parts of Melville. You know what I'm saying? And in the chapel, we have a place, we have a pew where Melville sat when he was in New Bedford in the 1840s, 1841. Oh wow. Uh so yeah, yeah, so it's kind of cool. Yes, the chapel is people get married after now. Are you are you can are you can say I am married, I am uh married. I was married in Ghana, so I'm from born and raised in Ghana, West Africa. So I got married, I have two children, you know. But maybe if I'm gonna renew my vow, maybe I'll I'll try and get married in that job.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah, so uh maybe tell me a little bit about that. So um uh it so this is an audio podcast. I imagine our audience like has picked up on that. You you do sound like you're from uh like uh they probably can tell that you're from at least like uh the western part of Africa. So uh what brought you to like uh from Ghana to becoming to being uh uh a park ranger at the uh New Bedford uh Whaling National Historical Park?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

We can have an episode, yes, one episode. Anyway, I I I came to this country, I think about the age of 20 or 21. I came to from Ghana to Fall River, which is also about 50 minutes drive to New Bedford, right here. Uh so I came again, of course, on the I came on as a visitor, you know. Uh and then after my expiration of my visa, I just decided to stay. So I think I was working for a roofing company for almost like eight years before after eight years I decided to do something different. So that's when I signed up myself to kind of U.S. Army. So I was in the army for four years. I was deployed in Afghanistan for one year, the year of 06, I was in Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

And then when I came back, when I came back, I was honorable discharge. Uh, and then I went to UMass that as a car as a student. So while I was a student, I applied for the park to become an intern for the park. So that was 2011-12. I was an intern here at the park. And then 2040, after my graduation, they were looking for a seasonal ranger, and I applied for it. And that's how I became a park ranger since 2014 till now.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

So uh what we we brought you on today to talk about the history of New Bedford, like the sort of the the city of New Bedford, um, which plays such a big role in um our story, especially where we're at currently. So we're at the very big we were pretty far in the beginning of uh Moby Dick, um, where we spent a lot of time in New Bedford, uh, and which uh Melville uh spent time in New Bedford, and we'll learn about some of the other people who also spent time in New Bedford. So maybe like uh to start off thinking about the the the early history of like what would become New Bedford, um I want to ask about um what the indigenous Native American presence in the area was like before colonization.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Uh yes, okay, so before, of course, before Melville, uh before the Fijians, right, before the chapel, before the streets, uh uh this was a land of the Wampunwak, right? Okay. The indigenous, the marsh peace, the poconet, the herring pond, right? Uh the the gay head of Akrina. This was their land before uh uh uh everybody started coming to here. The first European or British to come here was called Bartholomew Ghostnot. So he came here in 1602. He was the first person to come explore the area. It was in Cardi Hank, uh Plymouth County, Plymouth before New Bedford. But he didn't stay long and he left. So it will take about 50 years or so, 1652, that more Europeans, mostly British, would start coming to this to the to the new to the New Bedford area. Uh and then as you know, they bought over 105 acres of land for the indigenous. So they pay most skin, they pay kettle, they pay clothes, they play the one palm, you know, for over 150 acres of land. And as probably you already know, land to the Europeans was different from the lands to the uh to the one ponwork. To the one ponk, the land is the cup is for the community. Everybody has a share in it. But for the Europeans, it's an acre. This is my plot, this is my land, this is my area, and eventually that will lead to King Philip War, uh, which a lot of about 600 or so people died, both sides. So New Belfort, so it was and then New Belfort was then part of Dartmouth, Akushnet, Westport, Fairhaven, well, one town called Dartmouth. Before they were separate from each other, do it through commerce, you know, everybody will have its little way. But before Melville, again, uh before everybody else, this was a land of the one point walk.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Wonderful, thank you. Um, so thinking about um the British colonizers of this area, um, one of the things that we get uh very prominently in uh uh Moby Dick is uh the the Quaker presence in this area. So are the an initial British uh colonizers of this area predominantly Quakers?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, so before, of course, you know about the the history of the Quakers, you know the so the Quakers, right? Well uh before they came here was mostly Puritans, was mostly in the Bay Colony, which is a Bay Colony, was Bay Colony, but the Puritans way of worship was too strict, right? So it's a lot of persecution going on. So people like Quakers will start leaving the colony like Salem, like Boston, like these areas, to settle towns like New Bedford and Nanchaket. So the Quakers who were once persecuted in England, right, in Holland, so when they found towns like New Bedford, like Nanchaket, they wanted to shift away from religion being the dominant force in the city. Okay, so what they did was create a tolerant society where whereby it's not about your skin color or your religion or where you come from, it's about the commerce, it's about building a healthy community, right? So some of the earliest Europeans that came to Nubefor were Quakers. Two people were Quakers and also congregationalists. So Nubefor is divided into two. The south end was mostly Quakers, merchants, business owners, and then the the north side was congregationalists, farmers, mechanics. So these two groups of people came together to make sure that any uh the the New Belford was much more tolerant. That's why people like Douglass will come to New Belford, the Caverians who come to New Belford, the Azorians, the Irish. So this became the melting part, but it was due to Quakers who have more power and money, making sure that whoever comes down here was not judged based on his religion or his background.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, uh, okay, so um can you uh help us out with some of the like uh timeline for this? So uh when does New Bedford get settled by Europeans?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

So of course, first one 1602, right? Uh by Gusnold, 1652, you know, uh, and then the earliest more cricket was around 1700. So 1700, Nantucket was already whaling.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Nanca was already whaling, but it was mostly shoreline whaling. Okay, where whales were what hunted on the Atlantic and processed at the shores, right? However, Nantucket as an island, and if you remember uh Douglas Neville wrote about the sand, right, in in in Nantucket. So because of that, Nancy could not expand with the expansion of whaling. So 1700 to 1750-55, the uh some of the merchants, mostly quakers, start looking for area to grow their business, right? And as you know, business location, location, location. Sure. So they came upon New Bedford. New Bedford had a deep harbor, right? They had a lot of wharves, and the harbor was 20 to 30 feet deep, right? So the size of the whaling ships were getting bigger and bigger and bigger, slopes and schooners, whaling ships, whaling back, two to three hundred feet long, right? So New Belfort could expand, and also New Belfort being an inland, right, could expand with the expansion of whaling. So by 1765, now whaling was shifting from Nantucket to New Bedford very, very slowly. And again, the Quickers were what this were what the spearhead of the whaling industry. So before they came, there was also a gentleman called Joseph Russell, who they call him the father of the father of New Bedford. He was he was the one who first built the first um whale ship in New Bedford. Okay, called the manufacture. It was the first one, he did shoreland whaling. So when the Quakers will come, '65, you know, he would sell most of the land again to these business owners, and they would transform the city uh into whaling. So by early 1800, that's when they start coming to the city, right? And then from 1820 to 1920, New Bedford became the whaling capital of the world.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

So thinking about um again, the early history of New Bedford, um, what, if any role does New Bedford play during uh the American War of Independence? I know that uh the Quakers are pacifists, and so yeah. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

So as you know, uh whaling came around 17, so 1800, it was, of course, before then the American Revolution actually wiped down the town. New Bedford was almost level uh during the 1778 revolution, right? And one of the reasons that the historians are saying because Quakers were pacifists, that was why they were successful in New Bedford, because nobody took arms against them, right? So they left them, they basically led them to be. So New Bedford suffered during the American Revolution, none of them because again the Quakers, however, they picked themselves up after the revolution, right? Which around 1800 they start picking up, and then of course the war of 1812, which was mostly embargo that was set on the whaling vessels that also affected New Bedford. And then after the 1812 war, then that's when New Bedford picked itself up again in the 1820s, and through 1920s became the whaling capital of the world.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Okay, yeah. So uh what is it so specifically about New Bedford that leads it to like become this whaling capital of the world? And maybe also if you know, um, what are some of the other like uh competitors for this like uh whaling capital of the world uh um title? Like uh so so who who else is an important player, too?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

There was no competitors, there was not so if you know, of course, so from Maine all the way to South Carolina, a lot of ports were into whaling. Uh some some part of coastal town will put their resources to build one or two ships, right? And then they'll kind of share the benefits. But in New Bedford, it was mostly the uh individuals, right, buying shares in the whaling ships, you know. So again, when whaling starts came coming to start uh moving to New Bedford, there was no competitors. This city had uh again half of New Bedford was farming. So the the forest was used to build the ships, right? There was close to 30 oil reef flanners alone in New Bedford. There were close to 25 wharves alone in New Bedford. Before Melville, there was close to 7,000 or so sailors in New Bedford. Wow, okay, right? So this city, the I've during whaling, there was no air, there was no there was no competitor. Uh nobody could come close to New Bedford. That's why the whaling merchants, you know, not only that we later we have you know uh a lot of arts coming artists coming to New Bedford. Uh, but again, going back to your question, uh, there was no competitors in the whaling industry uh uh with New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Okay, yeah. So uh and then uh what is it about New Bedford that like uh gives it such an edge? You you mentioned like the deep harbors. Is there anything else that like uh is uh sort of critical to New Bedford specifically being like uh the uh becoming this whaling capital of the world?

SPEAKER_02 18:01

The the deep harbor was the main the deep harbor and then the wharves that was the main thing. Um, because with the with the wharves, right, they could build more ships. So before Merville came or before the Civil War, there was at least close to 900 whaleships in America, which was mostly on the coast. One third of them was built and sail right here in New Bedford. Okay, wow. So so picture that. Oh wow, okay. The the Boston Tea Party, the ship uh, I think the Dartmouth was built right here in New Bedford. So uh again, the so can we go back to your question? The deep harbour, the wharves, right, and also uh uh the materials needed to build the ships was right here in New Bedford. So they don't have to go far to get the wood to so everything was so that was what New Bedford, that's what University itself again from the other coastal towns.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

All right, so starting to think about um what New Bedford was like uh at around the time that Melville would have been in New Bedford. Um, what's the city look like? Uh how big is the city um in terms of like like a how many people are living there? What's it look like to walk around on the streets? Give me a like a tour in my mind if I was Melville.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Okay. So if you're Melville, so he came out, of course, a day after Christmas, uh, December of 1840. So guess what? He was here for nine days. Okay, Melville was here just for nine days. Uh so when he came here before the Douglas was also living here when Melville came. Okay, Douglas was 38, Melville was 41. New Belfort uh was around 12,000 or so population-wise, when both of them were here, you know. The city was not was not much developed in terms of buildings, right? Was now it was still in its early peak, you know, of whaling of development. Uh if it uh Douglas will write uh when he came to New Bedford in 1838, the laboring class of New Bedford live in better homes than slave owners in the south. Oh wow, yes, yeah, and then as you know, Melville will write the dearest place to live in all New England was New Bedford. Right, even though though people say through money, but I always say through the space that African Americans could make a living right here in New Bedford. So before Melville came again, this was much more like people always uh historians call it the Congress of Nations in New Bedford. When Melville came to New Bedford, they were all kinds of people, you know. Uh the Pacific Islanders were here, the Azoreans were here, the Cavedians were here, uh, the Irish were here, African Americans both ran away and free. Uh uh were here in the 1838, 1840 uh uh uh New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Wonderful. Um, so thinking about some of the specific places that uh Melville mentions in Moby Dick in the beginning of the book, uh in New Bedford. So the the the the whaleman's chapel, which is like in actuality the Siemens Bethel is one real place. There's a number of uh inns.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

So like uh we've got we have the uh oh come on, the harpoon inn, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah, so there's the the cross harpoons and the swordfish, both of which are too jolly looking, yep, and expensive, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

And then the spider inn. So this is my theory, Tristan. When Merville came to New Bedford in the Arian Forest, the Spider Inn was not in New Bedford. Okay, he made spada inn. There were three hotels, which I I I'm putting it together to be the uh the the what he mentioned. There was a mansion hotel. Uh the the Union and I think the Washington. Okay. Which was close proximity with where Merville was staying before he shipped out. Okay. So my conclusion was the three in that he mentioned was these three hotels or boarding houses that were uh in the 1840s before Merville would ship out.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yes. Do you know which ones uh do you have theories about which ones which we don't know which one seemed uh which one seemed like it was the least jolly?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Which so that right now I'm gonna be honest with you. I I'm working um, I guess I reread it again. So I'm gonna go more and do more research on each one of them. But I think the mansion hotel, maybe not, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Sounds sounds too jolly to me.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

And the Washington one. So I'm thinking maybe the more the Union one would be the kind of similar to the spouter inn, which was kind of cheap for him to live in. But don't quote me on that. Uh but I think I think uh uh there's a high chance that one of them was a spouter in. And then he he said he shipped out of Fairhaven, so another clarification was also Fairhaven and New Bedford share the same ports within much proximity because he shipped out of Fairhaven, right? But if we look closely, Fairhaven for uh New Bedford was kind of the same kind of uh little town at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

So yes, yeah, no, that makes sense, and then also uh we have an African-American church that's mentioned in the the same uh chapter. Do you want to tell us anything about so like uh do we know of like a real African-American church that he might have been talking about? Or like what's the uh significance here?

SPEAKER_02 23:36

So there's a uh there's our uh there's a scholar, a Maverick scholar called Robert Wallace. He wrote about Melvin and Douglas in the same neighborhood, and he tracked Melvin and Douglass in New Bedford at the same time in New York, right? So I think the carpet back, he spoke about going into a Negro church, right? Where he saw uh an angel of doom, right, beating a pulpit, right? And he said that the pastor or the reverend was talking about uh uh the darkness of blackness or blackness of darkness. I think one of them maybe I can twist it around.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Yeah, no, it's uh uh I got it here. Uh the the blackness of darkness, the blackness of darkness.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

So in 1841, New Belfort City Directory, which will be the yellow book or white white pages of then of down. Sure, we had Frederick Douglass being a reverend, right? We have him is we was a reverend in New Bedford in the 1840s, 1838, 1840s. So, and we know for a fact, Douglass, before he left Baltimore in Maryland, right? He was preaching, he was teaching, talking about African Americans, helping them how to read or write, and that was put a stop to it. So when he came to New Bedford, he was able to find a space that he could now preach. In in my in my bondage, in the second book, My Bondage and My Freedom, Douglas spoke about being a preacher on 2nd Street. Okay, second street is one block from the chapel. Oh, okay, interesting. Right? And so Hemelville was put within that one block to the waterfront where he spent nine days before he shipped out. So now, according to Robert Wallace, the chapel that Melville went into where he saw a Negro Revent was there's a high probability was Douglas.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Oh, fascinating. Yeah, will you tell us um a bit in case anybody in our audience like isn't super uh doesn't know a ton about Frederick Douglass? Could you just give a little bit of background on him? I I imagine most people listening to this notes.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Okay, yeah, yeah. So Frederick Douglass, he was born, of course, he was born into slavery in Baltimore around 1818. Somewhere you're gonna see 1878. Douglas have he wrote he has not met a single enslaved person who could tell where he or she was born, right? So it's very it's it's very conflating, you know, uh to know when they were born. His mother used to call him my lord valentine. So he chose 14 February 1818, had his birthday, right? So as a young kid, uh, of course, slaves were not educated, it was illegal. Uh Douglas was moved a lot from plantation to plantation. So one of the plantations was uh what the lady called Sophia Old, who started teaching the alphabet, right? He was brought to Sophia All to take care of her son, Thomas. Right. So the problem was her husband told her to put a stop to it. Okay, so but he said that conversation he had among them was the beginning of an anti-slavery movement conversation he had. So he started teaching himself how to read and write. So he has some of a he never had a formal education, he has what I call like a sort of an unorthodox method of teaching himself. So he'll come to you trusting and ask you, Tristan, you don't know how to read. Of course, you're gonna tell me you are you can read. So when you are reading, it's listening, right? And he'll go to and there's a lot of young boys in in Baltimore that are kind of poor. So he'll he will get a sandwich, right? And uh and this that sandwich, right? He'll exchange the sandwich for their notes, and he'll trace he'll trace the notes. Gotcha, okay. Interesting. Yes, very so he go to a shipyard, just like Merville said, the shipyard was my year or the willing voyage. Melvin to the shipyard, a dog has to the shipyard was his his harvard and cali uh at yell. But that was why he was tracing what the the uh the carpenters were carrying. So L for Leeward, he would trace it, D for bow, he would trace it, S for stand, mass. So that's how he was learning how to read. Right. So by the age of 12, when he started to read, by the age of 820, when he came to New Bedford, he brought with he brought with him the Columbia Orator. Okay, he brought with him the Webster Dictionary, and then one book, uh uh Columbia Orator in the Bible. These are the three books maybe will bring a Douglas will bring to him with New Bedford. And these are the three books that changed Douglas' life in terms of how to read and write. Uh in the Columbia Orator, there's a good book, there's a good uh uh article about uh a slave being asked to argue, right, that he he should not be a slave. So the slave owner questioned him if you can argue why you should not be a slave, I'll set you free. And that's a powerful argument that the slave owner, the the enslaved, put together. So those this kind of stories shaped Douglas' perspective about slavery and also about becoming one of the best orators in the country. Yeah, yeah. No, that's very good. Yeah, so yeah, so so uh September 1838, at the age of uh 1920, he escaped slavery. At that time, he also met his first wife, Anna. So Anna was a CEO and queen of the family, they were fiance, and she was the one who supported his escape. So she showed him a uniform to look like a sailor, and they borrowed a protection semen's paper back then. That was a passport for a lot of people to travel, and it was all part of the 1812 war to kind of protect Americans when they are caught or something. So he would use that document to escape slavery uh from Maryland through Delaware, and then we end up in New York. So, according to Douglas, the conductor just looked at the sale of the semen's protection paper, and that was enough for him. If he had looked thoroughly, right, the age, the height, the complexion, he would know that that's this document that do not belong to you. But Douglas said he just saw the sale, and that's how he was able to escape from Baltimore again to Delaware to New York. In New York, actually, he was going to Canada, and the advice then there was a guy called David Ruggles who said, No, no, no one about Canada, come to New Bedford, which is interesting. Come to New Bedford. He said, Why we're the Quakers, the whaley merchant, there's business. We are you are a call car, you know, you'll be fine in New Bedford. And that and then he wrote his wife, and that's how he comes to New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Okay, and so once he gets to New Bedford, um, what's he doing? Is he like working in the whaling industry, or uh what else is he doing here before he becomes uh a preacher?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

So in New Bedford, he in Douglas did not go on a whaling voyage, unlike Melville, who went at eight 18 months or so to a whaling voyage. But Douglas worked on two whaling ships in New Bedford, right? At the waterfront. Uh he worked and he did he did uh loading and unloading vessels. So when the whale ships will come, he was part of the crew that were taking out all the bars out of the ships, you know. And yeah, he said, uh, this this is a quote I love Douglas. He said, I found employment on my third day of arrival in storing a sloop with a load of oil. He said it was new and dirty and hard work for me, but I went at it with a glad heart and a willing hand. He said, I was now my own master, right? Because now all this work, all this income he was making belongs to him, right? Unlike Baltimore, right? Where all this money will have belonged to the slave owner. So for him, now he was living, and he said, my start uh New Bedford was where I was kind of like a reborn, right here in New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

So you said that Melville was in New Bedford for nine days, he was in close proximity to uh uh Douglas, and you said like you uh there's this idea that it's possible that uh Frederick Douglass might be the person who's preaching in uh the carpet bag. Do we have any other um evidence or uh anything from Douglas about Melville and any of his uh anything that he published?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

We we do. So you of course re-type here, right? If red type here, there's a character called Manu, right? Manu was introduced somewhere chapter 18 or so when Manu was introduced. So when you look at the characteristics of Manu and you compare that to Douglas, right? Sure, it's very, very interesting. Similarities, very, very interesting. And also, we find out that Douglas, when he was around 1845, for 46, 47, he was in England where Taipei was published. When Douglas came back, his first newspapers was what the North Star. In the North Star, we have a set a part where Douglas wrote uh uh tattooing in Taipei. He published it in his newspapers. Interesting, very interesting. So now why why are we why would Douglas publish that part in his newspapers? And then we also find out there's a lot of references in his next newspapers called Frederick Douglass Papers, where he said Bobby Dick captured. Okay, and then where he also make references of the Starbucks, Starbuck, Cucumber. Don't don't don't don't hurry, Starbuck, Starbuck, right? So now the question is why is Douglas publishing all these little pieces of Melville in his newspapers? That's very interesting, right? And then also, why is Melville making references or forming these characteristics of Manu in Taipei, right? And we know Douglas Melville right in semi-historical allegory, right? Unlike Mel, unlike Douglas, he was being real or congregated. I'm a slave, right? So when you look closely at these writings, that's where I think we think we believe that Melville and Douglas probably ran into each other right here in New Bedford and also in New York, because when Douglas, when Melville finished his trip, right, from New Bedford to Nuclevia, to Tahiti, back to the uh Hawaii, right? He was discharged and he went back home to New York. He was in the same proximity with Douglas. Oh, interesting. In the Hudson River. Douglas, there was a newspaper called the Evening Atlas that published Douglas will be speaking in New York. At that time, Merville was writing Taipei in the early stages. Yeah, so the Robert Wallace's conclusion is that Merville took time to go and listen to Douglas in the city hall where it was not far from Merville. That was why he introduced Douglas as Manu in the later on chapters of Taipei.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah, it's almost uh more like uh one of the parts that's like uh a more compelling piece of evidence, uh, is for me at least is the fact that uh Douglas is publishing uh references to Moby Dick, which uh which was not like a very uh popular book when it came out and like a not very widely read.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

So like yes, but my only thing was because the it was published in England. Douglas was still in England when the book was published. Okay, so did he did he read the book or not? I don't know, right? So anyway, but again, why would Douglas make references of the dick of Taipei in the newspapers?

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Yeah, Taipee makes more sense. Type was successful. Um, that's super interesting. So maybe to talk a bit about um New Bedford as like a specific place where like a lot of people like Douglas who are uh were enslaved and like escape slavery and go to New Bedford. Um, what about New Bedford uh was particularly attractive to uh people who are escaping slavery? And then also, is there any sort of like backlash against New Bedford, or is there any sort of like uh like what's that look like politically at the time for New Bedford to be this hatred?

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah, so you already know about the 1850 law that was passed by Congress, that all runaway enslaves must return to their owners, right? So uh if you come across an aware of enslaved, you have to present him or her to a magistrate. The law states that the magistrate has to listen the case. If a magistrate find the enslaved to be guilty, right, he gets paid ten dollars. If not, he gets paid five dollars, right? And then if you are caught harboring a slave, you are fine thousand dollars of almost like that's the law, right? Guess what? Most of New Bedford cases, the magistrates, some of them were Quakers. So if you bring a case to a Quaker with a magistrate, what are your chances? Yeah, and then we also have there were maps, right? Maps that were chasing slave hunters out of New Bedford. Interesting, even in the newspapers in the South, Virginia, Maryland, there was New Bedford mentioned that New Bedford was called the den of Negro Thieves and Protectors. So if a runaway and slave escape from Maryland or Virginia, they they mostly come to New Bedford to look for them. So, but however, they were not successful. You know, uh the gentleman that took uh Johnson, it freak Douglas in his house said there could no slaveholder could not come to New Bedford and take a slave for New Bedford, right? So politically, right, they were very strong, right? The Quakers, African Americans, uh, there was a very strong ally, it was mostly United. So they made sure that whoever comes to New Bedford was not uh unsuccessful. Yeah, and again, of course, the Quakers play a role into that. It was two Quakers who also you know uh welcomed Douglas from Newport, Rhode Island, on a stage coach to New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yeah, and were there any uh consequences for New Bedford, uh, with if like from the rest of the country or uh there was no consequence, we don't have any consequences.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

We don't have uh we we know for a fast slave hunters, U.S. Marshall will come to New Bedford, but they were not successful. I've not come across any document to prove there was any consequences that New Bedford faced.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

And uh, I think I saw about uh the the South boycotting New Bedford whale oil.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yes, Greece, Greece, no more, they said they boycott, uh they said Greece they was no while buying of small oil. They didn't care, they have got their other avenues to sell the oil, you know. But on the whale voyages, they stopped in Europe to sell the oil, right? They had the factories, so they didn't care. Uh they value um humans than they even the the commerce, you know. So yeah, the South did everything they can to protest to to figure out a way to kind of uh I don't know what bankrupt or uh I don't know New Bedford, but they could not.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah, and so uh were a lot of the uh the people escaping from slavery uh and coming to New Bedford, did uh they mostly work in the whaling industry or did were they on whale ships?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

We few went on whale ships. I think the percentage of so before the Civil War, there were more blacks living in New Bedford than New York and Philadelphia. Okay, we have less than one or two percent of them we know for were on whaling ships. Most of them, because they were much safe in New Bedford, they don't have to go on wheeling voyages, right? We have uh one called John Thompson. He he came from Maryland and he will lie about uh his job skill that he was he was a cook. Okay, interesting. So so yeah, and then he'll go on whale and voyage, and then during the whale voyage, the captain asks him to cook. And you look at the captain like I'm sorry, man. I can't, I don't know how to cook, I just have to leave New Bedford. I have to go on a whirling voyage because I've been hunted, right? Uh so we don't have uh there we don't have maybe one or two percent or even less who go on a whale and voyage, but most of them that came to New Bedford were working right here in the city. Some of them owned boarding houses, right? Some of them were relevant, again, some of them joined would join the civil war, all right. So again, uh I'll go back to your question. The city was so strong, they don't have to worry about going on a whaling voyage. Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, we have one that he also uh he was advised to go to one of the whaling voyage uh called Gideon L. Allen, who was also a whaleing merchant, and he was advised that they told him uh grey hands were needed, so he came to New Bedford to go on a whaling voyage.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Okay, yes. Now, the other thing we get in one of these early chapters of Moby Dick are references to like uh let me see. Uh I'm gonna pull it up uh just because it'll be fun to read. Okay, yeah. So uh but New Bedford beats all water, street, and whopping. In these last mentioned haunts, you see only sailors, but in New Bedford, actual cannibals stand chatting at street corners, savages outright, many of whom yet carry on their bones unholy flesh. But besides the Fijians, Tangadaboars, Aromongoans, uh Panangians, and Brigians, and beside the wild specimens of the whaling craft which unheeded real about the streets, you'll see other sites still more curious, certainly more comical. And then then we get into uh the Vermonters in New Hampshire, who uh Melville has a lot of contempt for. But so um to what extent is it historically true that there's a lot of people like uh from like the the Pacific or like uh not in Pacific Islands and uh yeah, but like so if you come you say you may come to New Bedford, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:58

So the chapel, the chapel, right? We have what we call Sonatops, which is empty grave, right? So if you come to the name and you see the names on the four wall, you'll see names from Pacific Island, the Calacas, right? You see names, it's fascinating. So whatever he was describing, that was Fred New Bedford right here. Uh people that he mentioned again, the Vermont, the New Hampshire, the old specimen that you guys didn't talk about, right? Was about African Americans, the Azoreans, the indigenous people, yeah. That was making reference to the old specimen. So whatever he was describing in that chapter on the street, that was true of New Bedford in the 1840s, 18 uh before the Civil War. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, and what was it like? Uh, so if you were um a Pacific Islander uh and you're in uh New Bedford now, what was that experience like? Do we know much about the lives of uh people who uh came to New Bedford, uh like probably by way of whaling ship or from like the South Seas?

SPEAKER_02 42:59

We don't know much because the the Pacific Islanders do a very, very strict with the whaling merchants. So most New Bedford whaling ships, when they leave New Bedford, right? They don't have enough men on the whaling voyage. So that's why they go to Queved, the Azores, the Pacific Islanders. The Pacific Islanders they have because of the men who are running the the uh the islands to the very strict. You have so much, maybe one or two years to bring them back. So they'll they were very, very, very strict with the the sailors. So we don't have enough, that's why we don't have enough Pacific Islanders that lived in New Bedford compared to the Azores, the African Americans, the Irish, compared to them. We don't have enough of them staying after the whaling voyage. A lot of them on the next whaling voyage, they'll go back, right? So that's why we don't have enough say islanders in New Bedford during uh Melville's time. But we have evidence that the most of them were here in New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Gotcha, very interesting. Um okay, so uh thinking about uh we we've mentioned the Civil War. Um so kind of moving forward a bit, um, what was uh uh New Bedford's role in the Civil War? Or how did the Civil War affect uh uh New Bedford in the whaling industry?

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Wow, I Civil War were of course eighteen by eighteen sixties, this was the highest peak of whaling. That was the beginning, 1855, 57, 56, was the high peak of whaling. So there were a lot of men that were coming to New Bedford through whaling. So during the Civil War, as you know, when the call came, they were looking for more soldiers. Then you know, New Bedford was kind of the one of the leading uh towns that came to the picture, Ibrahim Lincoln, Frankie Douglas. At that time, Douglas, right, is well known, right? He was well known as he has become a politician, right? So some of the men will come to New Bedford to recruit. So close to 3,000 or so uh people from New Bedford. Half was in the army, over 2,000 or so, and over a thousand was in the navy, right? And we have within the army, we have company A, B, C, but company C was mostly meant for New Bedford, right here. So the famous, uh, so the from I think it was from Sumter, if I'm right, the storm was the charge was mostly meant for New Bedford. So the New Belfort gave men to part of the Union soldiers, right? So if you come to New Bedford, hopefully, if you come, I will show the area where the the recruiting station was happening, right? Where uh there's a dedication of the 54th regiment, and we have a break on the on the floor where the names of the soldier that signed their name to go on the uh to be part of the civil war right here in New Belfort. And also during the Civil War, of course, there's something called the Stone Fleet, right? Okay, where uh over 24 or so whale ships were bought from New Bedford to be sunk at I think Charleston Harbor, right, to prevent travel, to prevent supply of United States. So these are the these are the two most important uh roles that New Bedford play in the Civil War. They give men and also use some of the whale ships as blockade on Charleston Harbor.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

After the Civil War, uh, we get like uh past maybe the peak of the the whaling industry.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah, what starts to cause uh the decline of the whaling industry in the decline started also when uh the cutting mails came in. Okay. So as you know, uh during whaling, of course, textile was also in the background, right? Okay, uh around 1846, 47. Uh so right now, so the cutting mails was coming in, railroad was coming in. So you can see now there's more opportunities coming into the system, right? Okay, the gold rush was coming in, right? People were going to California, right? So now Kerosine, right? So around 1850s was also designed, now there was many options coming to the picture, right? And in the Civil War. So but the whaling was still continue while the cutting mills was still, you know, on until 1920s, before the of course the depression, before the cutting, before the uh the riots of 1928, you know, we kind of end whaling, right? But before there was other or there was a lot of uh uh avenues or commerce coming up, and whaling, as you know, was tedious. If you remember Maville wrote about it, right? So with options coming in eventually, uh on the whaling voyage after the Civil War will start going down because of uh a lot of other avenues coming in.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yeah, no, that's interesting. Okay. Um, so you've got these other options. Um, and then uh to what extent is there an issue with like over uh overfishing or like over whaling? Uh is that a factor in the the decline of yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Overwhaling of yeah, overwhaling uh over the literally. So Nubeford alone uh documentation said they killed over 300,000 whales. Wow, that's a lot. So of course, Atlantic Ocean was done by 1850, Pacific Ocean 1850 to around early nine, uh early late 1800. Then the Arctic Ocean was the last hunting ground. So so literally, yes, killing of the world's contributed that because they literally killed every species everywhere that was was uh on the ocean, right? Uh and then before, of course, uh other uh other avenues or other business coming up.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

You you mentioned it uh before, but like uh petroleum also plays a role in like kind of supplanting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Yes, petroleum in Tatisville, Tatisville, Pennsylvania, play a role in 1865, uh uh, because then Kerasin was much cheaper, right? Uh so all this it's a little piece and bit happening, uh, or kind of like fragmented economies happening, right, at the same time. Uh, and that will lead to the decline of in 1925.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

And is that like the the the last uh whaling voyage?

SPEAKER_02 49:18

The last whaling voyage for was uh yes, actually the ship came from Mata Poiset, which is about one or two towns called the Wanderer, actually. Uh, so that will be the last whaling ship that left and came back with uh no oil, and then that was the decline of whaling and that at that time textile picked up quickly. Um, at that time there was a lot of investment. I think by the time there was 1500 spindles in New Belfort, over 200 looms, if I'm right. So this was all going on, right? And and and you know, at the same time. So when whaling kind of depleted, then people jump on on the mills. The first mill was called the Wamsada mills that was built in 1846, 47, named after one of the King Phillips, the son of one of the uh the indigenous species, yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Oh, okay, interesting. Yeah, yeah. So is there is there like a um so you mentioned that there's these other industries that sort of pick up the slack. Is there a big uh is it a big like economic blow for the whaling industry to um like decline and then end to New Bedford, or like it does it uh affect the the city much, like having that loss of industry?

SPEAKER_02 50:28

It did affect the city much, it did, it did, because now all these factories, right? So on routes where the highways right now, most of the buildings of the industry was just left damped, right? Uh so it did the the it did affect the city, and again, and then before fishing, right, fishing will come into place. Uh and now of course we are still number one fishing port in the country because of scallops. Yeah, because of scallops, you know. So the closest one is Gloucester, you know. Uh, but New Bedford had you know the scallops, so we are still number one fishing port in the country.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Okay. Uh I actually did have uh I had uh a couple weeks back, uh, they had New Bedford scallops at a restaurant like that. Oh well.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yes, it's yeah, it's good. It's good. Come try the fresh ones right here.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

I'm sure they're better if they're I'm sure they're better there. Um, so that's okay, so that's helpful. And then so um after the decline of the whaling industry, to what extent is like there uh a lingering presence or like kind of the ghost of the whaling industry in uh New Bedford today? Like how how important to like the identity of New Bedford is whaling?

SPEAKER_02 51:38

So you can see through the buildings. So we're still 1700 buildings that are still standing, 1800 buildings are still owned by Whaling Merchant, captains, right? Uh uh uh you walk the street of New Bedford here, it's Belgium block to maintain the historical field. Uh we we've we've buried all our telephone wires, electricity underground, right? So when you come to New Belfort, you still feel the whale, you still feel you know about six blocks from us called County Street, on both sides are whaling merchant homes, so mansions that are still standing, right? So when you come to New Belfort, you still feel that this city was one of the richest cities uh in the world, right? I always say in the world, people always argue against, which is fine, but but you know, per capita, you know. But if you come to New Belford yes, you still feel that whaling. And us as park rangers, right? That's what we do. We tell people what happened during whaling. Uh we shared with them stories of Melville, of Douglas, uh, of women, you know, of civil war, you know. So still, uh, when people come to here, you again the chapel is still standing, so people still see that wailing story or that whaling legacy right here of New Bedford. People still feel it when they come to when they visit the part.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

So uh when when thinking about like the the the Quaker influence and like uh how important like uh the the tolerance and like uh the pacifism of Quakers is to sort of the ideology of New Bedford? Um, and it's this is something that I think Melville does very effectively in Moby Dick is kind of counterpose like that aspect of being a Quaker uh to like the idea of like these Quakers with a vengeance or these Quakers like out on the seas, like in the engaged in this very uh like a very violent, yeah, brutal, violent like uh killing of whales. Um, to what extent like uh from like the perspective of like a historian or like even like uh today, is there like kind of the reconciliation of like you know, both being like this extremely like kind of tolerant place that's uh got this great legacy of uh anti-slavery, but then also especially with what we know about whales today, about like how intelligent and like uh socially knit whales are. Um do we see like both at the time like kind of like a uh uh a dissonance, like a cognitive dissonance with like a the the brutality of like killing whales? Or and then especially like I'm curious like what the legacy is like today um for people in New Bedford, like having this legacy of you know, this kind of mixed legacy in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

So, as you know, the Quakers, of course, to them the whale was a fish, so to them they were going fishing. It's like going fishing, you know, to survive. And then to them, the worst is a was given to them by God, all right? So to them, when we're whaling, that was the idea behind whaling. That's what that's the idea behind putting all their wealth into that industry.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

What about people today? Like, uh, what what's the what do people think? Uh like uh do people in New Bedford uh have any sort of difficulty with like uh the the legacy they're like thinking of? Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah, they they they respect what happened, you know. As you know, small fellows they they respect what happened and they understand, you know. Once in a while, we will have one person, one or two who is not happy about the way we tell the story, right? Uh we are they see us that we are glorifying the Quakers and cleaning off whales, right? But that's not our intention. Our intention just to tell them what happened here, you know. Uh, but overall, it's just again, just telling um to the park would that come to New Bedford what happened in New Bedford.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, well, wonderful. This has been so fun uh talking with you. Uh, when would you say is the best time to come here? You speak because you give these tours. I know that they're only part of the year. So, like if somebody that's listening uh to us now wants to come uh meet you in New Bedford and get uh your wonderful tour of the park, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Oh, so of course, go to our website, uh www.nps.gov forward slash N E B E. So as in New Bedford Whalen Historical Park, we have the calendar on our website, and you can go to the calendar and see the date, the time that we are offered on walking tours. So we offer two walking tours per day. Uh so we cover immigration, we cover women in whaling, douglas and merville, underground railroad. We we also look at the whales themselves, the size, how they communicate, right? How why they dive, why the spam will dive deep into the ocean, right? So all these are topics that we cover. Uh uh, so if you go to our website again, uh you can find uh all this.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

Well, wonderful. This has been so much fun. Again, this was uh Rufai Chardot uh from the uh New Bedford Whaling National Historical Park. Uh, definitely uh uh give it a visit, it'll be fun. And thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Thank you for listening. See you.

SPEAKER_00 56:47

You've been listening to the Pequot Pod with Tristan Bavel Marquise, Meg Fansher, and Johnny Wiles. Our music is by Lost in the Loop with sound engineering by Lauren Aiton. The show's artwork is by Delaney Garrett, and Tristan is on the St. We want to say a big thank you to all of our supporters on Patreon. You can join them over at patreon.com forward slash pequag pod for bonus content and for opportunities to help us keep the show running in ship-shaped condition. Ratings and reviews also really help us out, so if you enjoy the show, please do express your thoughts and metaphysical yearnings in the review section wherever you're listening to the show. Tell your friends, tell your foes, tell the white whale on whom you're monomaniacally urged to be revenged. It all helps.